Patrizierforum

Wasa, Bizpro
Maybe it has to do with the number and variety of types of Production in a given town as well as the available housing. This is one of the elements I am experimenting with. Another component might be the ratio of efficient production vs not so efficient production.

Although it's less than 1 knot, I'm cruising along

You all owe my return in this discussion to Bizpro, who was kind enough to post my picture on a milk carton. I will leave it to him to translate, and to take the heat as well.

In America, Patrician is just about dead. Patricianworld, our first board, http://www.md-gameinfos.de/patrizier/int…15afd67348bffff is a ghost town, mostly frequented by a congenital idiot who spams pornography links, online purchases for cialis and viagra, and assorted other crap. The Tavern's Side Room has dwindled, some of the old gang are there but other than a few posters from here who found the site, most don't play the game anymore.

But when we did In America, we had our heyday with trickery, too. Levon's Gold Nugget, Kaiser's Beer Trick (unlimited beggars, with city population of a million in one town), and the Arbitrage that Quis and I put together. I even posted there on Rapidfire, with arbitrage set to buy/buy and selling manually every purchase, generating millions in the first few months of the game.

We gave those up, though, by common consent. Why? It wasn't Patrician. It was just an exercise in gimmicks, program exploits. After all, what was logical about giving a pirate a ship, letting him loot you and pay you for goods, stealing them back, letting him loot again and pay your once more, and repeat/repeat/repeat until the commission he finally paid amounted to millions? Rapidfire, what possible connection to reality was there? Buy below cost, sell it back - the town would be bankrupt in real life, or no one would buy the goods. But the exploit generates huge amounts of cash. Stock market manipulation, even the intended Tavern Mission allowed a player to make 100,000 or more a week taking pirate ships and selling them. How nonsensical, there wouldn't be in life anything like that number of pirates. "Turkish" building, no roads at all.

We "outlawed" them all. We played a straight game, to make it as close to realistic as possible, and we enjoyed it. Skill, not exploits.

I tried before to suggest that here, to play a game honestly, in constest form, with honor, just as it should have been played. No exploits. No gimmicks. No save/reloads to avoid pirates, indictments, or in exploration and treasure hunting, and even building all your own ships yourself rather than taking the easy way out and getting all your ships from the AI and from the pirates.

The suggestion was about as welcomed as an outbreak of herpes on a wedding night.

Yeah, I started a game up this year, ran the Rapidfire. Made millions, without even bothering to steal anything from the AI or take over a single pirate ship. I took the millions, went to the Med, and flooded my Hanse with luxury goods. WIne at 135? Who cares, when money is irrelevant?

And you know what? It wasn't fun. It was boring as hell. Click to buy, manually sell, click to buy, 80+ round trips a day. 3, 4 million a month, right from the first captain. And not fun, no pleasure, just sore fingers from click-click-click-click-click, a hundred times a game day or more. And then on to stock market manipulation. Wow. What joy.

And now there are players who have the unmitigated gall, the sheer chutzpah to try to tell poor Starstruck that his technique wasn't in the spirit of the game? The classic definition for chutzpah in America is the man who kills his parents, and pleads before the judge for mercy because he is an orphan. You dearly love exploits, and hypocritically attack him for finding a new one? He won "fair and square", if such terms can be applied to this mess of a game style you all seem to enjoy.

Someday, there may be some players here who will play Patrician. I have played it, and liked it. The exploits? Interesting enough, but a real poker player doesn't use a marked deck, doesn't bottom deal or double deal, doesn't stack the deck, doesn't use a slick ace, and doesn't put aces and face cards up his sleeve. He just plays poker, plays what is dealt, and will walk from the table if these shennanigans go on.

Patrician is a really nice game. You all should try it sometime, you might actually enjoy it.

Now, where did that milk carton go?

@ bizpro

Please translate it, I think, I understand 85 %, but not all.

@ Baltic Trader

I am new in this circle. If I unterstand you correctly ( I hope you can understand, what I mean ), you play the game in the original sense. I think, a lot of members of this forum play it in a " private game " similar as you .

In a contest exist rules. In our contest is the common opinion, that all inherent tricks are allowed. Is it right ? I don't know. But I accept it. Please don't misunderstand me, but the rules are so. Therefore I can't understand the critic of the FWH-trick of Starstruck in this contest.

This is my first contest here at all. The reason is the goal of the contest. No company-value, no populationmax. I think, it is a progress.

In your article I perceive a little bit resignation. In this forum, you can vote for the best goals of the yearly contest. I, for my own, am very interesting to play a contest in the original sense, though I use the possibilities of this contest.

Greatings from Wasa

Greetings, Wasa. Yes, you understood well.

I posted before a story about a contest to determine who should be the King of Beasts. The eagle said it should be judged as who was the highest and fastest flier. The dolphin, the best swimmer. The mole, the best digger. And the lion, whoever was the strongest.

What a person feels is the best for a contest says much about what the person really values, about what is in his heart.

Voting? I find myself a minority frequently. Benjamin Franklin said Democracy was two wolves and a sheep deciding upon what to eat for lunch. Liberty was a well armed sheep disputing the vote.

Of course, the vote will always go to the exploit group here, and sheep aren't strong as lions, no matter how baaaaaaaa-d they feel about it. I just took the liberty to express my own opinion, even if it was a vote of one.

BT. Well, I can understand your sentiment. You are a master at this game and I have learned a great deal from your postings. I will definitely participate in a clean game when it becomes available. When I started playing the first campaign on my own, I was really unfamiliar with the basics of the game. I’ve tried to learn from playing in the contest. It has been a bit overwhelming to digest it all. I remember in another thread how someone said to me that using all the exploits will take you away from the purer game style. I can see what he meant by that, but I must admit that when I decided to play the contest, I am trying to do it the way the contest is described. Yes, I agree that if you don't use the exploits, you will be out of the running for a good score, but at least I can gauge some of how I am playing and learning against others who are trying to do the same. It does cause more pressure and takes some of the fun out of the game for me because I am trying to compete and learn at the same time. I am facing the replay issue right now due to the scoring.
If there had been a clean game and review process for it, I would have done that instead. I think the pressure would have been much less and I would be enjoying it much, much more. I have enjoyed reading a player named Charlotte's postings as she (as well as some others) is playing the contest in a clean way. I believe there are more players out there who would like to participate in that kind of a game. That is also why I wanted to try an MP game. That's just my 2
I appreciate your game and your inputs. Thanks

@BT
It's not a vote of one.

@all
Despite my (nonsensical, in this case) contest tactics, I agree that the exploits of this game are silly. All the money generation methods, of which arbitrage seems the most extreme, just mean that the entire economic side of Patrician is removed. And all others tend to remove something too.

My background is one of taking a game and ruthlessly manipulating it as best I can to do as well as possible . Then when the game is over, I (usually with others) redesign it as best we can to get rid of every possibility/exploit we used/thought of that takes away from gameplay. And we restart with a game a bit closer to the 'sort of game we want to play' . But my personality is such that I'll then take that game, and squeeze every point/orc/planet out of it that I can get within the rules ... before redesigning it again to remove all the easy ways (be they 'legitimate' or not) of doing so . Altruist, Universal Mob, Zane etc. & I (as Starstrike) all did that in the beta rounds of the online game Imperial Conflict. Some friends (two of them German for those saying it's only New World) then spun off from there and did the same with Atlantis - to the point that after four rounds our Arcadia branch barely resembles the original Atlantis. But it has a lot fewer imbalances and exploits, and a lot more strategic diversity .

Unlike here I'm not used to sharing exploits or tactics during a game - trying to work out how others did X was always a common theme . If no-one managed to work it out, all would be revealed when the game finished or the opportunity for the exploit closed . Still, similar principle.

The equivalent that I'd prefer here would be for arbitrage to be hailed as wondrous in its first year - and then outlawed or somehow sidelined for every subsequent contest. Ditto, turkish building, gold nuggets, hemp tricks, evicting of poor. Some things, like how to select NPT goods or cascades, would just stay wondrous .

I didn't contribute to the discussion on this contest because I was new to Patrician, and because most of it is in German. But my preference, by far, would be for a contest where it is played as designed, without arbitrage etc. And also for an assessment system that is not easily manipulated, eg structure on new year. Although I can't deny that's hard to design .

I don't care if contest rules are not enforceable/proveable; I'll submit saves and be happy with them when I'm satisfied I've done my best - within reason - to optimise my save to do as well as I can, regardless of what others do. That's not to say I'm not competitive, but I don't think the possibility of "uncatchable cheats" would detract from enjoying a contest for me, provided the community spirit was against such play. (I mention this because I think that was one of the big arguments against banning exploits).

In summary, I'll vote for clean games all the way.

[PS Why don't they have a devil smiley to go with the angel? It's a bit hard on the pirates me using them that way]

I dont thing that tricks witch are in the Game should be forbidden.

This year ist was tryed to give Poins in a way that the kown trick make no use.

It's not perfect but a step on the right way. It's not problem to make millions of money or capture manny Ships.

The differens ways are shown in witch use is made of ressources.

The grade of automation is another paramerter. Maybe in another year everybody gives a save from 1302 and the results are counted in 1307 after 5 Years whitout influence of teh player.

Not easy for me, to follow the discussion in the english section (google-translation produces only bullshit) but nice to see the development of it.

Quoted

Original von Baltic Trader
And now there are players who have the unmitigated gall, the sheer chutzpah to try to tell poor Starstruck that his technique wasn't in the spirit of the game?

My original word was 'bug-user' and my first thinking was the spirit of the contest.
Let's remenber. Beginnig with your post (BT) in May 2006 was a discussion about the contest 2007. The last contests are played with the motto "bigger, greater, faster", but they was IMHO far away from the original idea of the Patrizier2 principles. The turkish building technique was not the problem, but the revealing of arbitrage has eleminated the balance of the game. And so, we have a long discussion about Patrizier2 and the next contest. But it seems, that european gamers like the exploits and the using of them. Finally we had a compromise: get rich as much as you can and play so long you have fun. The rich in your Hanse should create enough money (so you need no excessive Arbitrage), and turkish building is not necessary, because you can't create enough rich people for a nice valuation. The rich people should be the indication for a well supplied Hanse.
With Starstrucks HTH-trick is it possible, to exceed the normally given limits and the goal of the contest (well supplied Hanse) is nothing but an empty cover. May be one player use the other tricks in the game (excessive or not), he can never reach the values from the HTH-trick. Not in one year, not in 10 years. The complete discussion in the last year is for nothing.
Nice, that Starstruck has revealed hist trick, but it is poison for the contest. Knowledge and using are different things. We should ban new tricks for a running contest.

Banning of other tricks is not simple, because you can't proving them (i.e. Hemp-trick, Outrigger-trick). If someone has suggestions ?
My suggestion of limitation of arbitrge and piracy (only the first 3 month) and the limitation of only 3 new offices per year has found no friends. Next try at the contest 2008...

Larsson
(sorry, bad english)

I would like to put my oar in to this subject: I'm quite in a similar position as Starstruck, since I'm fairly new to the game regarding the real time spent playing. Thus I followed the discussion in the forum but did not participate in it (I didn't even register in the forum for a while) as I felt, due to my limited experience, I would not be able to contribute a lot anyway. As the contest goes on, I tend to use everything that makes life easy (arbitrage etc.) and I enjoy it, maybe because this is my first contest. There is a lot to learn and to discover.

On the other hand, I can understand that an ultra elite player (to talk in MoO2 terms) like Baltic Trader would rather like to go back to the roots, i.e. play the game in a way the programmers intended it to be played. This would definitely improve the atmosphere of the gameplay. I would also have joined the contest even if all the exploits had been banned; and I know I would have enjoyed it, too, as this was the way I played the game for a couple of months before I discovered the forum.

The question of whether players would respect any non-perusable rules is in my opinion an easy one: they would. There are some other games, which rely on the trustworthiness of players. I can remember ADoM in this respect. The vast majority of people will not cheat because it is their personal honour and reputation at stake.

Regards, Balou

In English, there is a word, "spoiler" which refers to someone who tries to cause big problems or ruin something. I was very tempted last year with the population contest to be a spoiler, and in fact wrote Bizpro about it. The trick was found years back by a player named Kaiser, and we called it Kaiser's Beer Trick. In Patrician 2, if you donated one beer per day, it attracted beggars. A bigger donation, more. By donating every day, he achieved a population of over a million citizens in Luebeck alone, after a couple of game years. He was making over 10,000 a week just as outrigger in the city. I was seriously thinking of trying to make a point by using Patrician 3 donations to do the same. It is quite possible, combinations of fish, beer and grain achieve the same result.

I decided against doing it though. But I was very tempted to come in first by trickery.

In the English language forums, we found many such tricks, and Arbitrage was one. We knew about Hotseat mode - put the game into Multiplayer mode, have the other players buy ships full of expensive goods, send them to our home office and give the ships and goods to us, then switch back to regular mode. But we still found it possible to agree as a group to not use the tricks. How? The honor system.

And we had a lot of fun. My favorite contest of all was The Gauntlet. We began with debts outstanding, stock sold too, no ship at all, and an auction of a cog at 1% health in the town coming up. Some of us managed to get enough cash together to buy it, get it repaired enough to sail and acquire more ships. We learned things, too. Did you know that using the road to trade, that you pay a higher charge for wine or iron goods, but that you can sneak a few into the shipment without paying more? We even ran one game with only snaikkas.

We had a group of friends, and trusted each other. We banned the tricks. We played honestly, and didn't use them. Why? To win by "cheating" wasn't winning to us.

And now the contests here have come to their ultimate end. What goals can you possibly set that do not require the tricks? Population - Kaiser's Beer Trick wins it, or less easily, Turkish building wins it. Happiness? With Rapidfire and Stock manipulation I can dump every needed good into the markets at the least possible cost, since money and production costs don't matter. Percentage rich, wealthy? Starstruck figured out how to rig that one.

Larsson, Builder, Wasa and others, I don't speak German. I wish I did, because I could not even participate in the discussions last year. Google, and the other translators I tried made it hard to even understand what you were talking about. And maybe if I did, I could have communicated my ideas well - the English speakers here do understand the point. The whole German style contest game has become nothing but "bug-using".

So, what would I recommend? Same map, same start game. It was very well thought out. But play it straight. Let the Office Manager buy or sell, but only use automated sailing for captains - no buying or selling. Build your own ships, don't take the AI ships; if you loot them, don't save and reload to avoid penalties. Fight the pirates, but sink them all. Don't use Arbiss. Don't Turkish build. Explore without S/L. Don't use any kind of exploit. Make CV really mean something, make the accomplishments real. Play with honor, dignity and pride. Play the game it was really meant to be played.

Maybe it is my own military background. A man's word should be good. I can give my word not to do anything that would violate the letter or the spirit of the game. We ran our contests that way. Do you say that German language players cannot?

Quoted

Original von Baltic Trader
So, what would I recommend? Same map, same start game. It was very well thought out. But play it straight. Let the Office Manager buy or sell, but only use automated sailing for captains - no buying or selling. Build your own ships, don't take the AI ships; if you loot them, don't save and reload to avoid penalties. Fight the pirates, but sink them all. Don't use Arbiss. Don't Turkish build. Explore without S/L. Don't use any kind of exploit. Make CV really mean something, make the accomplishments real. Play with honor, dignity and pride. Play the game it was really meant to be played.

Very tough rules, all in all ok.

Two extensions please:
1.) Captains can also buying or selling, so you can open an automatic route with towns where no own office exist. Buying and selling of the same good has to be in different towns. Two (or more) stops in one town are not allowed.
2.) "Fight the pirates"- that's ok, "but sink them all"- that's not ok (IMHO). They have ships and i need ships. Why may i not have their ships ? (I even believe, there is a unwritten statute that pirates must transfer their ships into my company ) When i take a mission from the tavern, primary i do this because i hope, i can get a ship - not for the 5000 Gold and a little bit reputation.

Quoted

I can give my word not to do anything that would violate the letter or the spirit of the game. We ran our contests that way. Do you say that German language players cannot? .

I can give my word too - but i can't speek for other players.

Larsson
(sorry, bad english)

Quoted

Original von Larsson
2.) "Fight the pirates"- that's ok, "but sink them all"- that's not ok (IMHO). They have ships and i need ships. Why may i not have their ships ? (I even believe, there is a unwritten statute that pirates must transfer their ships into my company ) When i take a mission from the tavern, primary i do this because i hope, i can get a ship - not for the 5000 Gold and a little bit reputation.

Put mind in gear, before opening mouth!
Started a new game and tried to get some ships from pirates as soon as possible. But it was only a rally from piratehunt to piratehunt. It's pretty much the same, compared with my other games. Only a minor difference: Many ships but no cash for goods.
And so I started again. Now I will build all ships self and sink all pirates. Fled on tavern-missions until I had a ship with weaponspace (selfbuild snaika). Now I can strike back. It's good for my reputation.
I don't know, whats with ships from Aldermann-missions. But it's a long way until I'm LM, so I have time to thinking about it.

Larsson

@bizpro
concerning your last progress report 'rerun 1300'

Quoted

Company value ... new: 32.2M

You are talking about the end of 1300, are you? How come?

Quoted

The plague in Danzig, which ran all through December, affected the satisfaction...

In another game I noticed people being absolutely not impressed by plague (dead, but loving it)

Quoted

One of the reasons I did a restart was that I was unable to push the proportion of rich beyond 12.5% and their satisfaction was stagnant at 5.2.

You do not yet either. Or shall that be in 1301?

Quoted

by Baltic Trader
A man's word should be good. I can give my word not to do anything that would violate the letter or the spirit of the game. We ran our contests that way. Do you say that German language players cannot?

This upsets me a little bit. Do you expect them not to be able to?

But as a matter of fact, we do trust our contesters. There are cheats absolutely not provable. You mentioned one of them.
We assume all of our participants to not use them (as well as any other trickery against other competitors), by plain honesty.

The free use of ingame-tricks dues to our will to be open to all kinds of gamers. Not only the clean players, but the somewhat dirty (I am) too. You may participate as a clean player, but you shouldn't compare yourself to a freestyle player. We hope the gaming itself is fun enough to you, so you play your personal style. (thus don't forget: you're welcome)

And regarding the 'spirit of the game', it seems to me 'have fun'.

@Starstruck
I'm looking forward to your 1301 save for almost two months. Where could it be?

@Ugh! Sorry, somehow didn't see this post when it came on.

Sitting on my harddrive, waiting for me to come back to Patrician. I played it through to about January 30-ish 1302. There were a few things not-quite-perfect that I wanted to look back and see if I could improve by replaying December (for some reason some of my industries were short, say, 50 workers, while another type in the same city would be short 450 workers. Recovery is faster if both industries are short 250 each and I wasn't quite sure why that hadn't happened).

So submission is awaiting my starting playing Patrician again and making that decision ...

Hi,

Just after clarification with the new 00 standings - are resubmissions now allowed, or did Ugh! receive a special dispensation for some reason?